good evening and welcome back we are about to start i must say that we are extremely pleased to be here tonight on the second day of the festival of economics in this edition of the festival we focus on labor and technology and france timmermans is the first vice president of the european commission and is also a supporter of the roma soccer club and that is his introduction he actually studied in nimigan he was a foreign minister in the netherlands and also minister for foreign affairs for the european union he obtained his university degree in french now he is a very present first vice president of the european commission and he's also in charge of inter-institutional relations so we will talk about that too if i'm not mistaken of three hours ago the new uh italian government was a sworn in so the first question to vice president timmermans is after turbulent days and after so many words spoken what do you think about the situation in italy do you really think that there is a risk for the euro in this predicament do you think thus will run risks in terms of populism no i believe that we all have a problem in that this fourth industrial revolution entails that we have to work hard and that does not only go for italy everybody wonders how society will be in 10 years from now 20 years from now from now what about my children will they have a job what about china what about the european economic system and what about president trump so these are the questions that are asked in the member states when the economic systems are changing uh obviously also uh institutions and political structures follow suit this is something that we have seen in italy and in my experience i have seen that what happens in italy then happens also in the other countries of the european union so this is not an italian challenge it is a european challenge i'm so happy to have valentina romay here tonight with us she works for the financial times so i'm sure she will also have interesting questions to ask i would like to talk a bit more about italy at a press conference a few hours ago you said that you are pleased that the dialogue with italy has been established because europe has to go forward move forward but what about the direction i think that two possible options are present on the one hand there are some who say that the process of reform and integration of europe has come to a standstill out of several reasons one being the fact that the members of the european union are sort of skeptical vis-a-vis the italian commitment towards the resolution of the debt and growth problems others maintain that of the reform process should be accelerated now more than ever because with reforms you can better deal with reforms including lack of growth in a number of countries what is your opinion about this well in relation to global challenges what we need is unetsy in europe we need to know where we want to go together and we also need to respect the decisions made by voters by citizens there is no contradiction between the two options you mentioned i think we should have a very high standing debate about the choices that we have to make as europeans i'm absolutely sure that the world is looking at europe and what europe does in relation to what president trump does and russia and iran so are united europe is what we want if it is not united then what happens shall we simply focus on something else and then we tell europeans what we want from them but if we want to be uh the owners of our own masters of our own destiny we do have the task of finding one mission over europe which is united strong focused on solidarity this goes for all governments including the italian ones so the fact that possibly there will not be a strong commitment to foster growth and reduce that well with reference to that don't you think that that is a limitation and i'm thinking of the unemployment benefit approach in europe well let's see what projects this government brings i would say that we have to have an open mind and we want to go for compromises we must be sure that we uh move forward together with the italian government i know italy and i'm sure uh based on this confidence that we'll be able to do so you mentioned russia well we know that you need a unanimous vote for sanctions against russia and the two main parties of the current government have already stated that they wanted to suspend the sanctions to russia are you worried about that the commission of course acts as a sort of surveillance and so this vigilance function what about it what about the coverage that is lacking for the program or the agenda of the italian government are you worried about that well actually we are not we know uh that we need um unanimous uh approaches when it comes to russia we have always known that i worked in russia i was on a diplomatic mission to russia for three years actually and if you want to have a stable relationship with russia which is what we need to have because we share the same continent and we have to have a sustainable relationship with russia so if you want to do so if you have to do so you have to be strong and if europe is not united that will not help that will not help with putin putin present putin makes an attempt at breaking the unity of of europe and so we need to to to be united i know very well that this is not easy with mr putin's politics and approaches but i also know that we will soon need to find a way to negotiate with russia and make sure that we have a stable future without political or military oppositions so the stability of russia is indeed in the interest of europe as well stability is what we need hence the need for agreement especially in the energy sector where there is a strong interest on the part of russia and the same goes for europe i think we can come to a solution there minsk agreement well what about that it has been going on for three years no progress has been made it is indeed so and this is something that we should acknowledge all of us which does not mean that we should break relations with russia rather we should engage in a in a dialogue and yet our position should be strong because the russians you see have no respect for the week and then the united states well the united states also does not want so much a united europe today is a special day in italy we now have a government after three months but you see it's also an important day in terms of the customs duties uh for steel and aluminium on the part of the united states with europe and mexico and others so what about the reaction of the eu what about european custom duties the problem is bigger than that the united states has several reasons to be unhappy with europe in terms of spending in the defense sector and the trading sector we might expect attacks on various fronts what should we do counter-attack and that's it does history tell us that that is the way of course not if you want to be a bully with a bully that does not help i would say that our task is that of evidencing to the rest of the world that europe is here and stands for rules in international trade that is the reason we have to go to the wto and say these are the rules the united states does not implement the rules abide by the rules take action the starting point though is not simply responding to a blow coming from president trump with another blow the starting point should be that of being united in order to defend the international trade system this is also the reason why china russia and other countries are looking at what we do they want to see whether we are capable of keeping that system in place as we wanted if we do not do that others will not either do either we have a huge responsibility in this by the way you see i've always been convinced that we have to have a sort of transatlantic approach i i can't understand how it is possible that we now have a president in washington who believes that it is in the interest of the united states that europe be uh lacking unity that cannot be in the interests of the united states of america i also believe that things should not remain as they are right now i i do not think that they will if president trump sees that by means of his policies he manages to obtain a situation in europe where europe is not united and if he sees that there is a positive response for him then he he wins and he will tell us that is the approach for the future that is the right way to go but if we are capable despite all the differences that we have in europe to have when it comes to international trade a united strong position then i'm sure that the american position will change because this is also in the very interest of the american uh economy and entrepreneurs in the united states are reacting to what about the reaction on the part of member states in europe it seems that france is a bit more aggressive and germany tends to be more cautious if we are not united we'll lose all of us including germany once in a while in europe we did not understand that there are two types of member states small member states and very small small member states there are no big member states and we're guessing smaller and smaller in terms of economy and uh population and so on and so forth well mr macron won the elections in france one year ago and europe was relieved because it seemed that marie le pen would be a threat for europe had she won the elections of course in that moment all uh you main the main european politicians including german once said we need to have one finance minister for europe we need to reform europe we have to have an investment fund for the eurozone we have to be more political as a union we have to make progress when it comes to the european defense something has been done with defense but i would say that we are just on the eve of the june summit and it seems that it has been devoted of many things possibly minor things will be decided about the banking union but these are not the elements that we need to conquer back the uh uh the the trust and support of people you have to go through a political union to get to to that but we have been promising that for decades what do you know how brexit came about what about the winning element take back control is the slogan that is the mantra and that is the sentiment that we have in all member states our citizens do not feel that they are the masters of their own destiny they feel that they have been abandoned by the institutions and not only european institutions it would be easy otherwise as a problem to solve even national institutions are blamed in the same way and we saw that at the elections so if we want society to be supported by the citizens and not only by something that we can come up with at the european union we must give people the feeling that they are in control of their destiny well are you going towards populism because europe it is very difficult to make europe popular i have for kids and i have seen that with students if you are unable to make people dream people won't listen to you i mean if you stop making people dream and you're always there with your statistics and powerpoint presentation and whatnot i mean populists are capable of making people dream but dream a nightmare and that is and that is what worries me when i when i see when i see that that the most beautiful thing europeans have is precisely our identity because our identity is so differentiated so multifaceted this is the greatest asset of europe but over the last years this identity was sort of transformed into a weapon and well i believe we must reinvent a european patriotism uh francois used to say patriot is someone who loves his country a nationalist is someone who hates other countries and this is the distinction we must make now loving europe loving europe because well that starts in your village in your little city i i just give you a very personal example when in my region i come from the dutch lindbergh when the uh the regional paper writes says i am from ireland that is the city where i live and the the dutch national paper say i'm from lindbergh one the european uh papers uh writer they say the dutch so-and-so in new york well it is the european so-and-so but he's the same person i am the same person i mean europe doesn't belong to brussels or to the eu commission it doesn't belong to the institutions europe belongs to europeans wherever they are europe is here in trent on your square not in brussels but by the people or rather we have treated our our citizens just as consumers as customers not truly as citizens as customer as rights but no obligations a citizen has rights and duties and obligations and that is something we are supposed to reinvent because we are not populist and if we are unable to make people dream well we leave we leave an open field for populist and that's something i absolutely don't want to do well in your opinion why is it so is there a communication problem is there i mean something that is not perceived in the in the appropriate way i mean we are talking here about reforms about europe about the also the flaws of europe but only rarely do we speak about the initiatives that are successful say i think last week or very recently europe introduced the the prohibition to use plastic for example for well just for just one single use and that is something for overseas well but it has hardly been mentioned by newspapers in all european countries people feel they are european citizens but newspapers and mass media and general communication is dominated by anti-anti-european feelings what is the real problem well it is a substantial problem because when our citizens are afraid uh in front of the future they are right they are frightened and they are rightly frightened because there is much to be frightened about because we are unable to get an optimistic but also realistic project our for for our common future where there are some challenges that we cannot keep outside europe and i do believe that this feeling i mean not not to being the masters of their own destiny well that is that is a fact if we don't understand that if we truly want to have the possibility of shaping our future on the basis of solidarity of things of things being done together were each and every citizen has his own role as well as the possibility of participating i mean if we are unable to make a proposal in this direction everything else i mean communication and and everything else has nothing to do with it but of course there is also a communication problem for the last 15 years now it has always been the same all member states italy the netherlands when something is successful we say well that's what has been done by us we the nationals insisted for this or for that if something is a failure we say it's brussels fault why because brussels is unable to protect itself and there there there is really the hard core of communication the the core idea of communication we you cannot have a formula of communication for the whole europe because we are very different communicating in italy is not identical to working in the area of communication i don't know in france or germany or the netherlands if the national institutions are not willing to defend europe well in brussels so we won't be able to do that on our own because the responsibility for our european destiny is in the capitals in the cities in the regions of member states i mean it's not something that is just there in brussels and i mean when there is always this uh confrontation whatever brussels does is very bad very nasty whatever we do is very good very positive and so on well this type of of confrontation simply is not doesn't work because and so people will turn their back to to europe i mean all of us as citizens must take responsibility for the development of our society based on solidarity because otherwise we will always have this clash between european nationalism it's unavoidable this is part and parcel of our history people tend to say well we are forgetting our history and i feel very sorry when they say that on the 6th of december last year the juncker plan was put forward and the germans call it the saint nicholas plan it was a sort of was a father christmas uh plan this is an essential problem in the dialectics between european institutions and the government and the governments because that plan was very reasonable and also quite idealistic in considering the reform of european institutions but the germans perceived it differently they had no intention whatsoever to discuss it and some of those ideas that were ideas of a greater conver converters were born dead and i i mean they won't be won't be revived before june i mean the the what what is the question the inter-governmental level uh prevails merck mrs merkel and mr macron take the decisions just a few countries the european council is far more powerful and the eurogroup is also more powerful than the european commission and also with all these populism becoming so prevalent isn't that isn't that something of a big issue for our continent in the financial and banking system we have introduced this moral hazard moral hazard i don't know how that is translated into italians as the speaker and the moral hazard today everywhere everywhere migration security uh economic and monetary union wherever that is present because in the north people think well the others are living on our money and in the south people think well they are so harsh towards us because they just want to to make experts and they don't care about us to the east uh they say well where are they they promise to do things but they're doing nothing from the south they say well from in the east that they are not there is no solidarity now that we have the migration challenge the european union is based on solidarity which means that after two wars our two horrific wars we said well we we want to create a europe where one country dominates over another will lead to war and so after all these wars we decided that we had to create a europe where my happiness depends upon the the happiness of the other country well well that's fine when there is growth when there is optimism when we are all going up but now now and they're they're honestly i'm ready to share my destiny with someone else but today we are in a different situation we are we we share no optimism with the future and we do not trust the other country we don't think they are going to do what we have agreed upon in brussels and this is the essential problem i don't think germans are against a greater i mean against the possibility of creating a an economy based on solidarity but they are not convinced that the others will do what they've promised and now i reach the issue of migration we must rewrite dublin we must create a new a new policy a new immigration policy for europe because of course member states cannot do that on their own now states are doing absolutely nothing because they think the others want to have the won't feel this solidarity when they when they need it this is the basic problem of the european union it is built on the legal framework on that legal framework and on the idea that my happiness depends depends upon the happiness of the other country so if we lose that principle if we lose that idea i can't see how the european union is going to work i mean if the european union is a a conflict is a confrontation between countries i mean i'm stronger if it is uh if it is weaker well for immigration for migration italy was left alone that is something accepted by all and there is this sentence by paulo gent my parlor gentilone who is not a fundamentalist who said i don't understand why with us with community countries the european commission germany are very strict on that but the same doesn't apply to eastern europe when those countries do not accept their share of refugees as agreed at the european level and there is still a difference between the north of the south there's this lack of confidence whereas the other key of these countries of the east is accepted as if unavoidable well the uh juncker commission adopted uh that flexibility that helped italy and uh to carry out some reforms and that those reforms are behind the growth we are witnessing now in italy we were not that strict with italy um over the over past years but mr gentilene is absolutely right saying that uh i mean we are asking for solidarity i mean we can we must be aware of the be sure about the solidarity of others we must trust the other solidarity because structural funds for poland for example are also paid by italian citizens dutch citizens and so on it is a form of solidarity an important form of solidarity because that enables these countries to grow and of course that is good for our economy but if you do that for for other countries well in some way you also have the right to ask for solidarity when you are in a dire situation and that is the reason why we went to the european court the commission the commission put a claim in front of the court precisely to say that countries must do what has been agreed at the european level but the feeling of the european people that they were left alone well i i i understand that feeling well enough i i went to sicily a few times at the at the different arrival centers and in sicily i must say i've never seen xenophobia racism never never and this is a big asset that italy is giving to the european culture well going back to this clash sort of confrontation between north south east and east south or the east west the commission is has been discussing the budget there is something quite new in the budget there is this transfer of important funds from the east is well that's the financial times again well that's my boss i mean among the countries hit by the crisis including italy and italy possibly will have the greatest increase in funds and i come to my question this action i don't know whether this action will then be approved this action would have been most welcome in 2010 or 2013 where the crisis war was very strong and there were very few resources to get out of the crisis how comes you're doing that 10 years later it is the macron effect or fear of populism no no it is a very simple there is a very simple reason that you make budgets for seven years this is this is the the what what has happened we must uh make an analysis we carried out that analysis and we realize that five or six countries uh in the east have made an incredible growth and after that growth of course you get closer to the european average and it is absolutely logical for funds to go somewhere else and so this is the rationale it's not because we want to punish the east and help the south no it is an economic an economic line of reasoning that we applied to this to this phenomenon so it is quite quite uh quite logical that for years to come in order to create a stronger structure of the economy in italy spain and greece well funds will go to to those countries yes but there are many signs of opening of the european community towards a stronger presence uh a stronger role in in solving the economic crisis a 30 billion fund has been created for low-cost investment for the countries so that were most severely hit by the crisis among them italy for extraordinary interventions it would be most commendable if europe had a more active role in solving the economic crisis i mean are these things that we that move in this direction well i go back to what i said before well we need trust to do that mutual trust among member states is something we don't have at the moment so we must this increase this level of trust so this is the most important task of national leaders national leaders uh and if they can see this european interest and when they can also find a solution but this debate goes back to the same idea because we we came forward this proposal that is a very modest one and the dutch immediately said oh gosh never mr macron said you said oh it's too little so this is europe we must meet in brussels negotiate and find a compromise and it is beautiful because well i hope i prefer to have a difficult boring debate around the table rather than a war and this is what we had in our history and these are the two alternatives there is not a third possibility so recently in terms of poisonous days uh we have had declarations and statements in italy and germany that brought us back to images of the past situations of the past italians said that the germans use the economy as if it were tanks and in germany there were uncautious words towards italy and then also commissioner made a statement that was highly criticized so what do you think would it be better to simply be silent in such a difficult moment for or delicate moment for italy well you asked me a question and then you you tell me that i should or we should keep silent well that is uh something that brings us back to our history meaning that there are stereotypes stereotypes and sometimes we can't simply control them i would say that that is human typical of human beings and yet in politics we should refrain from using stereotypes we should leave stereotypes to others not politicians should not uh use stereotypes and voice them so if you know our history you must know how easy it is to build a very negative image of the other party even though we travel extensively we do not know much of each other's in europe and when that is the case you must respect the other this is my answer i must also add that i see in my country that populists use a strategy which is based on offending and insulting others and they hope that the others react and when they do react then they react even more that is the game they play and i strongly dislike it what do we do for citizens is much more important than stereotypes we shouldn't use the stereotypes i would like to go back to migration migration has been a fundamental topic in the past two three years and that included elections that included also brexit brexit and it is going to be one of the fundamental topics of the summit in june so it seems that the migration policy of europe should be changed and yet that is difficult it is difficult to reconcile with the reception of migrant and sustainable migration what about the future how will migration policy change i have been working at these in the past four years now and 2015 2016 were very difficult years the problem of migration will not disappear if you build walls if you raise barriers it won't be so the person starving in africa will always find a way to climb the wall if somebody lives in fear he will find a way i try and put myself in their shoes i have a four children if i fear that my children run the risk of being killed i simply take them and go elsewhere i go to europe how can i be angry at a person who tries to do what i would do but that is not the solution it is not as simple as that we have to invest massively in africa um unless we understand that there will be no solution a common european policy is needed in this respect we need to defend and protect our borders we have to do that together we have to find agreement with the states of origin of migrants and when there are refugees i'm not talking about migrants now but refugees when there are refugees and many refugees reach one country then there must be solidarity from the other countries towards that destination country we need to take a holistic approach if that is the case then europe will manage europe is able to uh manage migration if it does so but if we think that migration will be over in two three years from now if we simply think of sending back people to their country of origin if we think that gates and walls are the solution then we are wrong we make a mistake we need to have a humanitarian holistic solution and there will be also a legal component to that of course we do need legal migrants we do so based on the current situation of the population in europe but we if we continue fearing others coming from other areas other cultures then we will be blind and it would mean that we do not see the problem we have to solve on the other hand if we act together with this holistic approach we will manage we will cope and i'm sure i really hope that if the italian government has ideas to bring to the european council in june we hope that you can bring a constructive holistic ideas because italy has a long experience with migration let's try and be optimistic if we stop seeing others as human beings we lose our own humanity i have a last question and then we can take questions from the audience and my question pertains to another country that we have not talked about much but that is also source of concern and it is china before donald trump became president there were issues with china and before the decisions by trump we started thinking about the need for defense against a number of initiatives coming from china in the high-tech business for instance so what do you think about it leaving aside the emergency situations we have for instance with reference to brexit well i think that we need to defend and protect our intellect intellectual um skills and capacity as well you see the future will not be based upon the fact of producing fast and this is low cost the future economy will be based on creativity in europe we are more creative than in the rest of the world and yet unless we do protect what we have created so far we've run the risk of losing of losing what we have achieved i think we have to be united in saying to the chinese we want to have open trade we want to work with you but we need to protect what we have to protect if you don't let us be active on your market then we have to protect ourselves that is logical and that is going to be accepted by the chinese i'm sure about that the fundamental issue here though is what about the future economy how will it be how can we make sure that the european creativity which is unique can be uh preserved you see it is so interesting that creativity is a stronger when people of different origin and types so to say meat so when you use nationalism as a weapon when you are scared of others coming from other cultures and countries to you then not only are you creating a negative atmosphere in your society and community you are also killing the creativity of europe we are different and diverse that is our strength also in economic terms if you if we fear our variety and diversification then we will miss the the future i have a last question to you and it is about one topic that we possibly forgot to talk about it is the rule of law issue in a number of countries uh the rule of law is not respected and yet it is fundamental values of the european union and yet the european union does not have the instrument to fight against that we have article 7 and yet what about it and how can it be enforced and what about the budget constraint so what do you think about it i think that that is plus possibly uh uh a strong element to to consider well when when when you play in a match there is a referee and yet the referee has no weapons he will give you a ticket a red ticket a yellow ticket if you do something wrong and if you do not accept the rules it's not the referee can do anything against it so we're against you our union is based on the power of the law it is so because in the past we had only the powerful with rights and that led to wars so instead we went for a powerful law and that means that all countries have to abide by that and a strong the the strongest country has to respect the law this is a problem with populists because they do have their own definition of democracy so they say if i win elections i'm in power i have power and my power comes from the fact that i was elected that i was voted i i have no obligation and duty to abide by the law i'm the law because i won the elections and i'm the people because people voted for me so i am the one who knows what people want all the others who disagree are enemies of the people and that goes for judges for journalists and others of course that is the logic that is also the philosophy so this is not this is this is this isn't something that you can solve with article seven this will be uh solved when all member states say that's enough we can't work in this way europe will not function and work in this way europe is based on the rule of law if that is not the case if that is discontinued then no europe is left we will have conflicting member states and countries and the rest of the world will look at europe and say what a mess and we will not be able to make the values we share uh powerful also in economic and social terms so for me the rule of law issue is fundamental the same goes for the autonomy of the judiciary the freedom of the press if you do not have these things then you are left with no europe there is no europe left these are the fundamental aspects for europe even more much more than brexit and i hope that our citizens realize that so do you expect that poland changes course well that will happen when the other members stay to say that's enough at the end of the day and that goes for all member states one event one development in a member state will be corrected by the member state by the community of that member state we can't do that from the outside we can help we can exert influence we can convince we can of course support but things are going to be corrected within the state and not outside the state other questions good evening you spoke about the law but you never mentioned inequalities inequalities that are made worse that have been made worse within individual states and also between state and the other wouldn't you wouldn't you agree that the economy of course these inequalities of of all types and the economy plays a very important role wouldn't you think that in the this neoliberalism is not working and so and law must prevail on the economy so as to regulate the economy and thus avoid these inequalities then you mentioned russia and you are suggesting you you're suggesting bargaining with russia from a position of force but but negotiating what exactly because wouldn't you say that a europe that is united but that does not include eastern countries wouldn't this be a europe that does not uh that is not in line with our history of humanities and culture you mean that russia should be to become a member of the european union in the long term the answer is yes i would leave putin aside because he is not going to be eternal he's going to die sooner or later and i've read on some papers that we're going back to the cold war and okay and there are all the question on inequalities is a very important one because we are well we are in the middle of an industrial revolution this is the fourth industrial revolution and this industrial revolution this fourth industrial revolution is the first one that is going on simultaneously all over the world and so it affects everybody in the world in fact and so when there is a change in economic relations and this is obvious is something that obviously happened happening in an industrial revolution there is the in well there is always enormous risk of inequalities being created and this is what this is what is happening now um a social covenant well the two principles are care and share i am i am accountable for myself and for the whole society so if we are accountable for the whole of society how are we going to create a society based on solidarity how is it possible for the riches for the real money to stay just in the hands of those who are capable of exploiting of exploiting the new economy that is why we need a a a a democracy and a public will determination to create equality in our societies and this is politics i mean if we have not understood that the markets cannot do that on their own i mean if we have not if we're not aware of that we will lose to nationalism we see two people here asking for the floor good evening the gentleman is not using a microphone so we can't translate i would like to go back to the previous question atelier wrote who will govern the world and then hope because polybius in 204 talked up about oculus crazy that is the war of the masses following on plato's uh themes we need to understand what europe is popper said that we have to work to find the solutions and not enemies and if we work so as to find enemies we will always find an enemy our neighbor will be our enemy what about your question what are you asking my question is well it's not a question it is a reflection the problem is what do do we know what it is the clashes of the masses the problem is ignorance ignorance for the future thank you so much thank you well as i said i have kids and i tell them that we have a post-ideologic generation which is full of ideals though and that inspires me we have forgotten the ideals and the idealism that our young people have if we manage to give them the right uh room to develop their ideals then we will have a very beautiful society but we are scared to do so and young people do not feel that they can challenge us on this possibly they will be able to do so in a couple of years well i think that young people should be ambitious i think that you young people should need to should want to have the power and send us home send my generation home this is what i tell my children as well you see i also come from an ideology which is the left-wing ideology and the concept i still see in europe is that of the previous century of exclusion based on belonging to a nation or an ethnic group that does not work i hope that young people who do not fear the others will be able to have a post ideological idealism which is capable of creating a solidarity-based society i'm very optimistic about that i am indeed there was another gentleman asking for the floor then uh so the other gentleman first finally complement well first of all congratulations because you gave us truly a lesson of what a true european is and also i mean you're excellent italian it's really amazing the question is on europe in the world we were sort of making up for what has recently happened europa is in the midst of three giants the united states both political and military and economic sorry and russia essentially political and military and china essentially economic giant well these three giants have an interest in keeping europe not united and that the action of these three giants is going to accelerate integration or rather the other way around and there is one final question there oh thank you all and congratulations because you speak italian so well two questions well this anti-european feeling or having some misgivings about europe among the people well was that due to the fact that regions and cities had to uh well to do the spending review and so on and so forth i mean it was a good they had to have a good control over the budget and many representatives of the institutions uh well always said that everything was europe's fault would you say that this may have affected this feeling against europe and germany tends to prevail and to dictate its will and member states italy among them are willing to accept this and then since i have an english husband after brexit some friends told me now you have a third a third country husband well well and since you have also mentioned briefly brexit and the fact that the british went away well on the first question well it's up to us well nostalgia has become the opium of the people in europe and and this also happens in some member states that think think of themselves as world powers global powers and there are two very very small member states who think so if they keep thinking that in isolation they have the possibility of facing the chinese the americans and the russians well then europe cannot play a role if over the next years we are unable to understand that only a common a single strong european stance well only that can change the relationship with the other global powers our market is still very strong i mean we saw that with this new rules for well the new rules for privacy beautiful italian word privacy but well in the u.s some u.s actors said well we we are going to adopt the same rules why because the the european market is important for them all and that's how we can protect our values in front of china and america we can do that what we must do that together we must lose we must we must forget this idea that the french or the german on the english can do that on their own and i'm saying that also vis-a-vis artificial intelligence the new economy for chinese this is not a moral issue it is an issue of political and economic power for europeans that should be should have something to do with ethics so what is the relationship between us as human beings and this artificial intelligence that at some point will be capable of having a sort of conscience when we can find this answer this answer will be accepted by the rest of the world so european unity is the only answer we can provide will there be such a unity it depends on the feelings in the most important capitals of the european union and i feel at least that they became aware of the problem so i'm i'm quite optimistic about it so coming to the question asked by the lady here i am fond of europe and so i will have a certain uh position in the debate the other option is that of being phobic and being europhobic if it is so then we get nowhere i'm in favor of europe but that does not mean that i will defend everything europe does we also make mistakes and we have to change course sometimes if before the elections next year we also want to debate about policies and not only being in or out we have to reason about politics and policies it is not going to be a black or white situation yes or no to europe we have to talk about the social policies defense migration this is also my hope i do not want to defend policies that i do not appreciate i want to be able to criticize if i think that that is correct and that does not mean that i do not believe in the european project when you criticize the european the italian sorry the italian politics that does not mean that you are criticizing italy the same should apply to europe if you criticize something about europe that does not mean that you are criticizing europe as a whole and then the britons i must say that with reference to brexit i'm sorry about it i went to a british school i i know uh the uk pretty well and i really believe that the uk is part of our european community and i hope that one day they will realize that thank you for tonight thank you so much thank you so much mr timmermans you